In this exciting episode, we welcome Sophie Collins, an accomplished marketing leader and CMO at MPB, the world's top platform for reselling camera gear. With her extensive experience as VP of digital for DAZN and a decade-long stint as Managing Director of performance marketing for Neo @ Ogilvy, Sophie shares her insights on how marketing can drive positive change and how businesses can start with an authentic ‘purpose’. She provides valuable advice to marketers who are passionate about making a difference, regardless of their leadership positions. 

(00:48) Icebreaker - tell us about a challenger brand you really love

(03:50) Intro to MPB 

(08:05)  Where do you start with developing an authentic practical purpose for your brand  

(12:09) How closely does authenticity and commercial purpose have to be in your mind? 

(13:50) How does someone who isn’t CMO have an impact? 

(20:50)  How do you think about marketing in having a positive impact in the world  

(24:20)  What organisations and places should  marketers look at to get more into the world of sustainability 

(26:50) One thing (or two) things people should do differently after they listen to this 

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👉Want to join Rival AMP? Join us here.

Mentioned in the show:

Flo

Riley

Circular Economy Network, Recurate, mentioned in ZAG 50

Conscious advertising network

Breaking barriers

Creatives for Climate

Find Rival online at www.wearerival.com, LinkedIn, Twitter.

Watch the video version of this Podcast on YouTube.

Find Eric on LinkedIn and tweet him @efulwiler.

Say hi at media@wearerival.com, we’d love to hear from you.

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Scratch is a production of Rival, a marketing innovation consultancy that develops strategies and capabilities that help businesses grow faster. Scratch is hosted by Eric Fulwiler, and he’s joined by Sophie Collins CMO of MPB.  

Find Rival online at www.wearerival.com, LinkedIn, Twitter. 

Watch the video version of this Podcast on YouTube.

Find Eric on LinkedIn and tweet him @efulwiler. 

Say hi at media@wearerival.com, we’d love to hear from you.

Transcript

Eric: Hey everyone, before we get to today's episode, I wanted to share what I think is a pretty exciting announcement, we are opening up our rival amp community. So some of you listening have been part of AMP. From the beginning of the company. It has been our small, very small friends and family community around rival where we post updates asked for feedback, kind of share what's going on in the business. But actually, we think there's a lot more potential as we've grown as our community has grown, as we've met more of you to actually build and scale a proper community within rival amps. So what rival amp is going to be is it's going to be a community for challenger marketers on WhatsApp, we're going to share ideas and observations from the Challenger marketing world that we see and ask everyone to contribute to that share about challenger brands, marketing, news, industry events, job opportunities, ask for feedback, and input use each other as a sounding board, we think it's going to be really great. So if you are interested in joining in or not already a member, please either reach out to me, if you know me, or go on over to our website, wearerival.com. And you can apply from there, this is free. But we do want to make sure that we're adding people that are really interested and can really add value. That's it onto the episode.

Sophie: Number one is, I think, be interested about learning more. Because I you know, I've spoken to lots of marketers over the last few years about how they feel about sustainability and messaging and purpose and an authenticity in their activity and things like that. And I think there's still still, I think there's a lack of education of exactly how big an impact brands are having. And that's both the brand and you know, the product or service that you're selling, but also the marketing activity.

Eric: I'm Eric Fulwiler. And this is scratch, bringing you marketing lessons from the leading brands and brains rewriting the rulebook from scratch for the world is today.

Everyone, My guest today is Sophie Collins, Chief Marketing Officer at MPB is the leading online marketplace for used photo and video equipment. So they are squarely in the circular economy space. And we talked about that a little bit in the intro and some of the brands of businesses that she thinks are doing interesting things in that sector, which is fascinating. Actually, before that Sophie was the VP of Digital at the zone, and spent almost a decade as the managing director of performance marketing for Neo at Ogilvy, she's incredibly passionate about marketing, with purpose, and also what marketers what we as marketers in the marketing industry can do to further positive change in the world, not just within branding, and marketing. And of course, we talk about purpose, but also what we can do to actually contribute in real and meaningful way. So there's so much opportunity in this conversation, and where we get to at the end about how you can actually get started getting started how anyone can have an impact with what you do, where you choose to work, and actually how you can get involved in some of these organisations and bring your skill set as a marketer to the table to what they're trying to do. So please enjoy my conversation with Sophie Collins. Sophie, thanks so much for joining us today. How are you doing?

Sophie: Good. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm delighted to be here. Yeah,

Eric: I'm looking forward to this one, we had our prep call. Well, I guess it's now early February, it feels like swap anything before the break feels like so long ago. At this point, I can't believe we're only a month into 2023. But I'm excited about it. Because you know, I do want to touch on a bit of the work that you're doing at MPB. But I'm excited to dig into some of what you're doing some of what you're advocating for, and some of what you're passionate about in terms of how marketing can actually make a difference outside of the marketing industry. So we'll get into that. But before we do the icebreaker question that we always start with, can you tell us about a challenger brand that you're very passionate about right now and why

Sophie: I'm so always having to think about this when I think maybe not one particular brand, but I think there's some quite interesting areas where some brands are coming to the fore. circular fashion is a really interesting one. I mean, we work in the in the circular economy. So it's an area that I've watched a lot and obviously fast fashion is a real problem for our planet. And there is a kind of local to me, there's shore and pine who have just won a Sustainability Award from London runway for their recycled clothing. There's ELV denim, there's there's people like Wyatt and Jack who take inflatable bouncy castles and make fashionable backpacks from them. So there's lots of really interesting people, I think, in the circular fashion space at the moment. And also women's health I think is quite interesting. Lots of lots of movement going on in the area that's been quite maybe under serviced in the past flow worker who do sustainable profit It's for women, that kind of thing. So there's maybe not one, but I think there's lots of really interesting activity going on at the moment.

Eric: Yeah, those are all great ones, one of our favourite challenger brands, and actually one of the co founders has been on the show is Riley, out of Ireland. So women's hygiene challenger brand, they're doing amazing things. And then the circular economy is also really interesting, I think that we did an episode of our newsletter might have been November, or October, I'll try to there. And maybe we can take it up and put it in the show notes. But looking at that space, because there are the, you know, bouncy castle castle, the backpacks that the direct fashion brands doing it. But what I thought was really interesting was actually looking at kind of the b2b businesses and tech platforms. So there's one and I wish I could remember the name, that was actually building the platforms for retailers to develop their own Circular Economy offering, which I think is really interesting, because, of course, you've got the Challenger brands that are coming up. But and we talk about this all the time change in any category is a race between challengers getting to scale and incumbents trying to get innovation. And so I think it's interesting the businesses that are popping up in the circular economy space that are also looking at how to bring innovation to the incumbents in the category as well. Great. So why don't we start with Can you give a brief overview on your role, and MPB And I think within that it would also be good to touch on how we landed on the topic today, which is, you know, you've brought it up something you're very passionate about, obviously, we've done some research and do a lot when it comes to brand purpose as well. But of course, it's broader than that. So maybe you could just touch on, whether it's your background, or what you're doing now, organisations that you're a part of, what how are you kind of connected and plugged into this call it marketing for good space, as well as being CMO of MPB?

Sophie: Sure, so MPB is the largest platform to buy and sell used photo and video kit in the world. We circulate about 400,000 items, cameras and lenses every year. It's obviously at niche for photographers and videographers. But it's a really large niche is about 70 million active photographers in sort of North America and Europe at the moment. So we were started 11 years ago, with the idea that accessing kit in photo and video could be better. Now it's a bit of a wild west, if you go to a peer to peer platform like eBay, there's, there's a real problem with trust, because this is a piece of expensive kit that we need to know whether it's going to work or not. And also, there's a lot of holding on to kit that happens with photographers and videographers, quite a lot of attachment. And so kind of moving people to, to sell their kit and move on with their journey and provide that kit to the next people coming into the industry or coming into the hobby. So I joined here about five years ago as the CMO, we've always been a sustainable business because we're a circular business, of course, founded in Brighton, relatively small in the last couple of years, we've grown to Around 450 people. But in the recent years maybe have already doubled down on making sure that our entire business end to end is sustainable, brought in a head of sustainability two years ago who's worked really hard on understanding our own impact and, and working to improve it as well as obviously our business model being circular. I joined actually because I love the idea of passion marketing. You know, photographers and videographers are very passionate about the topic and the manufacturers and the kit. And I came out of the zone where it was passion for sport and people are very passionate about their teams. And I think they're quite quite similar. And another similarity, I think, when I, when I moved became evident with kind of how there was a purpose to the brand so designs goal was to democratise sport for all it was a it's an OTT service for sports rights. And then at MPB. Our purpose is to open up the world of visual storytelling in a way that's good for people in the planet. So quite similar for the last kind of decade, I suppose working in those kinds of roles where people are passionate about what they're doing when the service or product we're providing. But also as a business, we're able to authentically and genuinely communicate our purpose. Because it's it aligns with the business. Say, Well,

Eric: Amazing. So let's let's dig into it from there. I think that that's a great jumping off points. We're going to talk about first, developing an authentic and practical purpose. And this is something that all brands now it seems like are trying to do and sometimes it feels like there is a bit of like a jump the shark moment going on. I think we're actually going to do a punchy episode on this coming up pretty soon because even just anecdotally for me, I mean, you know, I think everybody's talked about the Unilever edict from the top of every brand needing to have a purpose with now the past CEO, and the whole joke about Does your mayonnaise really need a purpose, but even now, like I walked by a new gym, I think it's a new gym chain in Camden that is going to plant a tree for every workout you do. And then there was another one that I got an ad on my Instagram feed that was for non alcoholic beer that has 10 grammes of protein in it, maybe less on the purpose side, but it just, it feels like everybody's kind of jumping on the bandwagon in a way. On the one hand, maybe not a bad thing, you know, and it is a good reflection of changing tastes and demands that businesses are trying to find ways to integrate this. But I guess the thing is, a lot of them, at least in my opinion, a lot of them seem to be kind of like layering purpose. On top of their business, they take a business of being a gym, of being a beer company of being a Manet's brand. And then they try to layer purpose on top. Whereas with the research we've done and kind of how we think about it, it needs to be a little bit more core to who you are, if it's truly going to be authentic and therefore effective. So I guess the first question, and the place that I would start is, where do you start? When it comes to purpose, and whether that's MPB? Or whether how you'd recommend other people in their own roles in their own businesses start to think about it, where's the starting point? For answering this question of how do you develop an authentic practical purpose for your brand?

Sophie: I think it's a really interesting one. And I think it's been driven by the consumer, right, we've now got a younger generation, I suppose, who are wanting to make decisions based on brands having purpose or aligning with their values. And because of that, maybe a mayonnaise mayonnaise brand does need to have a purpose, I think it's slightly challenging. I guess it depends exactly on the on the business. I mean, if it is a mayonnaise brand, then I would say in a struggle to find a social cause that aligns with mayonnaise, which is going to be authentic, but maybe actually, you know, Unilever, on a, on a bigger scale can think about the social cause that they would like to, to move along, I think if the brand has got something as a, as a closely aligned area, so for us that is access to visual storytelling, because visual storytelling has got the power to change the world, right? You can the environmental causes move forward by people going and taking photos of the terrible, you know, crisis in action, sort of melting ice caps, and things like that. So I think, if you have a cause, and it's quite easy, I think, to develop a purpose, certainly for us, we, I suppose had maybe had a purpose at the centre of our company, and then thought about, okay, well, now we would like to probably amplify it to be fair, do more around that purpose, be more active and more deliberate about it. But also then to talk about it, communicate and make sure that we are we're telling our customers what we care about. And hopefully that aligns with what they care about. I think if you're in a brand, where that's not the case, and you want to be authentic, it's an it's a lot of work and has to be thought about really carefully to figure out what social causes or values align with the brand that you could legitimately support without it looking like purpose washing, which is that risk. It's not crazily different from CSR plans from from years ago, it's just become something that you have to do as a integral for everything you're doing, as opposed to a sort of add on that you're doing along the side that you might talk about every so often. So I think then, I guess the summary is, regardless of whether it's mayonnaise, or visual storytelling, you have to authentically has to be supporting a social cause that you care about, and that you have a reason to play within. After that, I think if you can, if you can find that and you can feel good about it, then how you talk about it, and how you how you support it, what activities you're doing, I think it's probably relatively straightforward.

Eric: And do you think that that authenticity has to come from an end and a place of dollars? Like, does it have to be commercial does purpose have to tie to profit? Because, you know, I think about the mayonnaise, I can't think of, you know, I don't know if it was Hellman's, or whatever. But I think there are a lot of businesses out there that see the opportunity. And maybe they genuinely want to do something different. But again, they kind of take purpose and put it on top of what's a traditional Manny's business. And even for us, you know, we you know, we're part of 1% for the planet. So we donate 1% of our revenue to environmental nonprofits every year. And actually, I don't know that I've ever thought about that as purpose. I've just thought about that as like, it's something we can do. And while we're tiny, I think if everybody does what they can, then that actually adds up. But also we've thought about, and I haven't talked about this publicly before, but we've thought about, you know, do we come up with a framework where a certain percentage of our portfolio or revenue needs to come from businesses that are contributing to the UN sustainability development goals as an example I don't know. But Trying to find something that pushes it more closely to how we make money, what our business model is. And so I'm just curious how closely authenticity and profit or authenticity in the commercial business model of a company, how those fit together in your mind.

Sophie: I mean, for me, they have to be completely in lockstep. Otherwise, it's, it's not authentic, right, if your business is making money over here, and then you're doing something different over here, in order to offset it, or in order to attract a customer base or, or to be able to talk about yourself in a certain way, for me, that doesn't feel authentic, I think, you know, if you if you go, it quite closely, becomes quite quickly maybe becomes a sustainability, conversation, and sustainability in the genuine, genuine definition of you know, it's it's a business that good for people profit and planet. So the ideal is to find a way of making the profit in a way that doesn't impact the planet, and is genuinely good for diversity, equity and inclusion for people. And within all of that, there will likely be, I think, a purpose or a cause or values in there, that you can choose to Hiro and some will be, you know, plastic promotions, and some will be data, decarbonisation, and some will be female empowerment. So that, you know, there's there's different things depending on who the brand is. But ultimately, I think a sustainable business has got to be able to stand up on people planet and profit. Otherwise, it won't be a business. I mean, if you can't make profit, and obviously it won't survive.

Eric: So that leads me to my next question, which I think is interesting, because I think there's, you know, conversations like this, the theory, the right thing to do. And then there's the reality of, for a lot of people listening, or a lot of people out there, they're not the CMO, they're not starting a company from scratch, they don't get to make this decision, necessarily, maybe they get to have a voice. But also, maybe they don't maybe they work for a big organisation, and it kind of is what it is. Are there ways or do you think that people can have an impact if either, you know, they're not able to impact the whole strategy? Or maybe they agree that purpose should tie to profit, but they're not in a position to be able to make that decision or change the way the company operates? Like, how should people approach it, if maybe they can't go fully top down blank slate, draw it up exactly the way that they would want to

Sophie: I think they can still have impact that you can always have impact. And I would like to feel like everybody felt that they could mean, if you're in a fortunate position, you can choose where you work, and you choose to work places where you know, a purpose is strong, and something you feel really closely aligned to and that's, you know, the ideal world. Most organisations will have a volunteering programme, and that's something that you can take advantage of. So actually 1% of the profit for the planet is either 1% of profit, but it can also be 1% of product or 1% of time. So you know, organisations might be able to offer time, and then you can go and choose to do that, to give that towards a cause that you care about. There's always, I think, an opportunity, hopefully always an opportunity to feed back. And I think over time, businesses will hear that consumers and their own teams want to work somewhere or, or interact with a brand, which is good, which is doing good for people on the planet. So over time, I think things will change, I think probably in the shorter term may be feedback to an organisation, looking into volunteer programmes, or maybe advocating for volunteer programmes are a good way of getting involved.

Eric: I think it's such a great point and great takeaway, that you can always have an impact, even if it's not exactly or fully what you might want to do, or you feel like it's small. Like I was saying before with us, you know, we're a small business, but I really think that if all the small businesses join 1% for the planet, or did their part, that it really, it really adds up. And I think that choosing where you work, if you're in a position to be able to do so, which you know, hopefully for the people listening out there, in this industry, people do get to move around, they do get to choose or plan on what the next job is. I do think that matters. And for us, anecdotally, again, very small, but the B Corp, the 1% for the planet that comes up a lot in the interviews and we're, you know, it's not I think the type of brand that we want to build is, of course, intentional. And I do believe you know, we talk about how can we build a home for the best marketing talent in the world. I do believe the best talent marketing or any industry is now in a position particularly post COVID and boundaries, not what they used to be where they can. They don't have to choose just a great company with good comp. They can choose a great company with good comp that also is doing something that they care about and contributing to the things that they care about in the causes and all that stuff. So again, for us, it's, I think we should do what we can, even if that's small, but also, I think in terms of building a modern brands, consumer or employer, I think that's a really important thing to think about. But we all get to vote, we all get to have an impact, day to day, week to week in the small decisions that we that we make, and also in the bigger ones, like choosing what company you work with. So I think that's a really a really great perspective for people to take away.

Sophie: I think is this like, wondering for agencies, though, because there are lots of brands, right, agencies are working with clients, and they can't always, I guess, choose. So to your point about making sure that a certain percentage of the roster is supporting the UN goals. You know, you see lots of agencies actually recently been called out for working with oil companies and things like that, you know, there's a reality of their very large clients, there's very big budgets, that's how you support large agencies. But we're certainly we made the move as a media agency to essence last year, and part of the reason for that was that they were actively working within sustainability in the ad industry, and that they were looking to support sustainable brands. And for us, that felt like a really great fit. And it has been,

Eric: Yeah, yeah. And I, it's interesting for us with what we do, and again, we're still small, but I was actually expecting that the B Corp, the 1%. We call it kind of like our, you know, our doing what we can side of things, I would have thought that would come up more in in client conversations, actually, because I would have thought that clients would be more interested, like you just said, and so clearly they are, and clearly they're out there. But for our for us, the impact has been more on kind of talent, attraction, and hopefully retention as we grow, as well. Okay, great. So let's talk about I think, I think there's, I think this is really good ground to cover in terms of the role of marketing within an organisation and how it can bring purpose and positive change to what it does within its remit. But I think there's also and this is what I'm really fascinated by from our prep conversation, and something I know, you're passionate about how marketing can change things for the better overall, because I think, you know, to be honest with you, and I don't know how much I've talked about this in the past, before starting rival, I asked myself, like, what would the dream job be? And for me, much like what I was saying about, you know, I think top talent, you know, gets to kind of dictate their terms. For me, that was I love, you know, I'm fascinated and passionate about marketing, how do you actually drive the growth of a business by changing perception and behaviour. But also, I think climate change is the biggest challenge facing our generation and to be honest with you like our race. And so to me, if I could draw it up, it would have been, well, could I go start? Or could I go be CMO of some type of climate tech business where I was doing what I'm good at, but also contributing to the positive change that I want to see in the world didn't quite work out. We're trying to do what we can with rival and actually talking to some businesses in that space right now. But I guess the thing that was the thing I think about a lot is, sometimes I feel like at least from myself, as a marketer within the industry. Am I really, am I really? Am I really doing what matters? I guess that sounds a little bit dramatic, right. But like, at the end of the day, it's marketing. And your business, of course, is different, other than contributing to positive change for the circular economy and all that. But you know, in the past, having worked with the Unilever's and having worked with, you know, some of those big brands out there selling more of that stuff, is that really contributing to positive change. So along, and I guess, very open way of asking the question, how do you think about the role of marketing and having a positive impact on the world? Is it just brand purpose, tying it to profit, the stuff that we've already covered? Or can marketers out there who might be passionate about this, like I am, actually do something to contribute to what they want to see.

Sophie: I mean, I think there's so MPB is not going to save the world. But I think the secular economy is a big, a big part of the answer for saving the world. I think that the quandary that marketeers will find themselves in is that our job is to drive consumerism, which is what you're describing, and over consumerism in lots of instances and we have to stop it. So I think there is a responsibility for people in marketing, to think about how we reverse the over consumerism that quite often our industry drives and that's really challenging because if you work in a brand where you do have to sell more shampoo or more clothing or whatever it might be then obviously, that's that's your business goal, but you can't you can't change that which I think is when maybe then purpose and making sure that you're sustainable in what you're selling is also really important. There's there's a reality right you can't we're not going to stop Unilever selling lots and lots of my And as but if we can, if the people working there or, or others can make sure that it's been sold in a sustainable way, then that's helpful. Personally, I love working the circular economy and I don't want to move to a brand ever really, that I don't feel like is effecting positive change. I'm a marketer, but I'm also a mum, and I want to plan it for my children, that's really important to me, I want to be able to say to my children, I was on the right side, and I did everything I could. I think there's also lots of opportunities to use your marketing skills for good. Outside of Korea, maybe, you know, there's lots of trustee roles and board roles for senior marketers to join lots of really interesting sustainable businesses or people. People like the Carbon Trust, things like that the people that you're describing lots of startups that will look for advisory roles. So I think there's opportunity for people to use their skills for good, I just think it's a real challenge to think about how most brands to be honest, are able to switch their businesses to being genuinely sustainable, and therefore marketers to be able to carry on driving consumption of a product or service, which which is not impacting the planet negatively.

Eric: I think that's a great point, the one about looking for an advisory role, or maybe just volunteering some time, you've got a skill set, even if it is a nonprofit, they want to grow in the impact that they're having. So maybe it's not for profit, or you know, the typical kind of p&l that we're used to in the private sector, but they have their growth objectives. And if you're an expert, and if you have a skill set in helping brands grow, then you can certainly get involved and help them is there. You know, and maybe it's just kind of, hey, think about what you're passionate about, and go Google nonprofits and reach out to them and see if they want a marketing advisor. But are there any kind of organisations or any places that you would point to people or maybe from your own experience, how you've kind of found those opportunities if people don't know where to start?

Sophie: I mean, personally have been looking more at kind of board roles. And there's obviously quite a big movement for women on boards because of the eye targets, frankly, and boards being woefully underrepresented with any kind of diversity. So women on boards is a good organisation, new role and new role. Their paces, I've been looking for board roles. Honestly, I don't know about advisory roles, I think probably getting involved in whether it's Si Si, which is the circular economy Club, which is organisations all over the world, which are in the circular economy. And that gives you a network that you can then start speaking to and opportunities, I think probably come up that way for things that janitors maybe aren't board roles and things like that.

Eric: Yep, makes a tonne of sense. And there's some that were involved in, you know, personally, I'm an advisor to breaking barriers, which is a fantastic refugee charity, here in the UK, we've done some stuff with them and some of our events and things like that. There's also a conscious advertising network that we contribute to black representation and marketing. There's a bunch of others, there's some on our site, and I'm sure with a quick Google, there's more that people can find as well. So Sophie, we've gotten through kind of the meat of what we wanted to talk about. Before I let you go. And it's interesting, because this is a question that we ask all our guests, but not to put any pressure on you. I feel like it's it's it's more significant asking this of you. But we always ask, What's one thing that people should do differently after listening to this episode. And so I'd be curious with the ground that we covered, because I think that with this conversation specifically, you know, it's not like we're reaching millions of marketers with every episode, but to my point of everybody doing what they can, I would love if, from this conversation, one to five people, actually, and I'll let you tell them what they should do. But from my perspective, if they actually did something differently, because the big thing that I'm going to take away from this is that you always think of that mantra of get started getting started. And I think was something like this, and particularly for people listening that are in or around the purpose conversation, marketing for good, but maybe just haven't gotten started or haven't found a way to put even like an hour a week or an hour a month or whatever it is into it. I'd love if this can actually create a little ripple of positive change and action within our community. But I'll turn it over to you. If you had to sum it up. What is one thing that people should do differently after listening to this conversation?

Sophie: I'm gonna have to

Eric: Yes, please, can even have three if you want.

Sophie: Number one is, I think, be interested about learning more. Because I you know, I've spoken to lots of marketers over the last few years about how they feel about sustainability and messaging and purpose and, and authenticity in their activity and things like that. And I think there's still a still, I think there's a lack of education of exactly how big an impact brands are having. And that's both the brand and you know, the product or service that you're selling, but also the marketing activity, you know, the there's just been launched group, and we've just launched a decarbonisation framework for ads for advice. I mean, it's 2023. So it's quite late for that to come. And you know, lots of marketers I speak to don't know, the impact that their digital advertising is having, for example. So I think this sort of twofold. One is understand the business impact. One is understand the marketing impact. If you're running events, how bad is that for, for carbon? And how are you thinking about, ideally, reducing or removing, if not offsetting? So I think education is really important. There's some really nice education pieces out there. There's creatives for climate who do some nice short courses, there's a sustainable life, they do some nice short courses as well, sort of thinking about how marketing and sustainability messaging and purpose messaging come together. And then I would say, the second one is to do something about it. And that sounds a bit glib, but volunteer, or go and speak to your boss, or whatever it might might be. And actually, even if it's in your personal life, my New Year's resolution was to buy no new clothing. I work in a circular economy, I feel really passionately, that it's that it's a big part of the solution. So no fast fashion here at Circular Economy fashion only. So, you know, I think you can even if you're making the change in your personal life that can that can help. Well, it all helps, right. And it also is going to help your education that you can then take back into your career as well. But I think if all the brilliant marketers that I know and come across new enough that they could go and make a change, then you know, then it would be a ripple effect. That would be that would be decent.

Eric: Well, I'm certainly inspired and motivated to do more after this chat. Sofia, if people are interested in, you know, reaching out to you connecting, maybe getting your advice on what they could do or should do. Are you open to them trying to get in touch with you?

Sophie: Of course.

Eric: Yep. And is LinkedIn the best place? blinkin include your LinkedIn URL?

Sophie: Yes, that'd be great. Thank you.

Eric: Amazing. All right. Sophie, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for this conversation. And I'm really, I'm really hoping it can have an impact. And actually, for the folks listening, if you are listening to this, and you think you are going to do something differently. I would love to hear from you. I'm sure Sophie would love to hear from you. But that would just make my make my month whenever this goes out of just hearing from one or two people that are like, Hey, I joined this organisation or like, Hey, I'm going to check this out. So please let me know if you do do something differently after this. Sophie, thank you so much. Hope to see you soon.

Scratch is a production of rival. We are a marketing innovation consultancy that helps businesses develop strategies and capabilities to grow faster. If you want to learn more about us check out wearerival.com If you want to connect with me, email me at Eric at eric@wearerival.com or find me on LinkedIn. If you enjoyed today's show, please subscribe, share with anyone you think men enjoy it. And please do leave us a review. Thanks for listening and see you next week.